Friday, July 4, 2008

Truth Pt.2- The Rebuttal

So, if you haven't read my previous post, now would be the time. My coworker wrote me back regarding the verses I gave him to prove to him that Jesus is God, not just a man. Click on the pages to make them big enough to read.

I had some answers to his statements, such as if we believe the Bible to be God-breathed, uncontradictory truth, then why does he chalk some things up to human error and misinterpretation? It seems like he is just picking things that don't fit and saying that they were snuck in. Also, he thinks of Jesus as the son of God, so I asked him why didn't God just use anyone else, why did he use Jesus? He said that God could have used someone else,but he found Mary to be willing and sinless. what about all the prophecies? Maybe I could have been the savior..NOT! In our conversation after I read his letter, I also mentioned that Jesus is God's ONLY begotten how could he just be a human like the rest of us. He asked, so you don't consider yourself to be God's daughter? Yes, but in a different way. It says ONLY begotten son. Maybe Caesar put that part in. There is a definite difference. I am going to be worshiping not worshiped in heaven. I didn't think to tell him that but I will next time. He asked how could God kill God (or maybe let God die..I think he said kill),how can God sit at the right hand of God, and I said, I don't exactly know all the answers, but the biggest answer is that God is GOD..he can do ANYTHING!!! I also said that I don't always think scripture is simple. There is depth, insight, and even mystery and symbolism throughout the whole Bible. As you grow as a believer, more things become understandable through life experience and the Holy Spirit ( another made up thing, as far as he's concerned, used to be "holy ghost", isn't hopeful that it was translated correctly). I asked him how he could say he's a Christian, did he know that Christians believe Jesus to be God incarnate, and he said that wasn't true, that Christianity is divided on this subject. He said that basically our conversation was done, because if I couldn't see from his clear message what the truth was, then we weren't going to get anywhere. I told him that that was the difference between us. I don't stop telling people the truth, even if they don't agree, because I want people to know the fullness of a life connected to the Living God, and I care about him and want him to be saved. He told me he is sure of his salvation. Can anyone help me..what else can I say to him?


jeleasure said...

I have some good thoughts on this. Recently, I posted a comment on a blog that works to counter subversive Christian Doctrine such as The Jehova's Witnesses. I would like you to go to my comment posted on that page if I do not retreive the comment to post here.
Let me attempt to retrieve the comment I posted to address the issue of Jesus' membership in the Holy trinity. I support the Holy Trinity Theory, by the way.

jeleasure said...

O.k. Angela,
This guy you work with may not be a Jehova's Witness. I can't say what he is. However, his unwillingness to believe in The Holy Trinity is a promotion tactic of Jehova's Witnesses. They attempt to confuse the issue of The Holy Trinity by stating that Jesus Christ is a creation of God.
The best thing you have working for you on this issue is that the man you are working with is not a student of the Bible in the sense that he intends a deep understanding and education in Orthodox Christianity. This is obvious, as I know of no Christian Doctrine with out a belief in The Holy Trinity. Below is my comment to the 'anti Jehova's Witness' blog. I am going to hook you up with Russell who is a Phd and Theologian. He has been in school for the last seventeen years and has his Phd. Discertation under review. Here is the comment I left:

jeleasure has left a new comment on the post "Slave Class--Modest?":

I have had the occassion to invite the Witnesses into my home. I have had them come back repeatedly. Then, when I was able to tell them how I can see "The Son" as a creation of God. I told them, I believe, with different evidences that "The Son" is a creation of God. I believe this in the text of Exodus 33:19-23.

In Exodus 33:19-23, God reveals "The Son". Only, you can not see it in English. It is in the language from which "My Back" is translated.

This phrase reveals what Jesus says when saying, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father". Because the words for "My Back" translate as something like a twin, but smaller. So, to say, in reference to Jesus, "The fullness of God dwelleth from "Eph. 3:19, or, John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, ... is to say that God took of Himself and placed what He took of Himself in the vessel which you ought to admit, God created. The vessel I am referring to is Jesus. We know God created The flesh of Jesus as we know that Marry did not become pregnant by natural conseption.

What I then say to the Witnesses, is why are you using this as evidence to destroy lives. Then I go on to tell them I know of Judge Rutherford and Charles Taze Russell. I know that the Witnesses have ruined lives as my aunt became a Witness and did not go to college as she fell into the stupidity of Russell's scam to grow the Witnesses by fraud and fear.

Besides holidays. I have no real convictions of celebrating them or not.

This is not a defense for the Witnesses. You should use this as a way to counter the mind bending the witnesses have done to their members and what they are attempting to do to you. What you would be telling them is that you have a way of identifying with their understanding. Then you tell them that it does not make Jehova's Witnesses any more a pure doctrine than the one you or I are under. Then tell them that you would not be party to an organization that uses patterns of this world and scripture to give false dates for an end to humanity, which has resulted in the destruction of many lives.

The next time the pair approach your door, invite them in. Get this comment from your printer and let them face their shame.

thekingpin68 said...

Hi Anjela.

I am a blog link of Jim and his wife,Vicki.

I have a PhD in Theology under review and this is one blog article I wrote concerning the trinity.


The late Dr. Walter Martin was considered the foremost expert on pseudo-Christian cults in North America.

An article on the trinity:


This page has two links to his audio lecture on the Jehovah's Witnesses and the trinity. It is helpful


His book The Kingdom of the Cults would be useful if you could find a used copy.

Please feel free to comment on my blogs.


Edie said...

Hi Angela - It is clear that this guy is not a believer. The bible says that non-believers do not understand. It is because they don't have the Holy Spirit that they don't understand. You can talk til you're blue in the face but he won't get it until the Holy Spirit reveals it to him.

The best thing you can do right now is go about your business letting the Light of Christ shine in all that you do so he will see. Pray for the Holy Spirit to open his heart to the Truth, and to open the discussion in His time and with His words. For now, let God water the seeds for a while.

God Bless you!

thekingpin68 said...

Woops, I should state Angela.:)

Angela said...

Thanks everyone for your helpful resources, insight, and advice. This man isn't a J.W., but the cults have some similarities from what I understand. I am not going to press the issue for now, but as Edie suggested, let God work in his heart. If he has more to say, I know a little more now than I did before. I truly appreciate you taking the time to help me chew through this one!

thekingpin68 said...

This man isn't a J.W., but the cults have some similarities from what I understand.

Understood. Yes, the info I provided can work with someone who is not in the Watchtower organization.

Cheers Angela,


Toknowhim said...

Thanks Angela for visiting my site today. I have a busy day, so I will have to come back another time to read your post, but I did see below that you have a Paul Washer video :) I watched that video (I think it is the same one), and I have not really thought the same since...It was a big wake up call!! Blessings as you journey to know him more!!

jeleasure said...

Right, I looked at what this guy was saying. I know he is not a Jehovah's Witness. The Jehovah's Witnesses have more morality than this guy.
What I was pointing out, is if this guy does not believe in the Holy Trinity, you can address him from the same understanding I use with the Jehovah's Witnesses. That is,

Seeing Jesus as a creation is just as correct as seeing yourself or anyone else as a creation.

In discussing "The Son", He, comes from the Father as The Father shows "The Son" (not the physical being of Jesus) to Moses. (Remember, when in scripture, God allowed Moses to see His 'back'? Well, 'back' is taken from a word in its origional text that can be translated as a twin, or something like a twin but smaller. From this, we now have a better understanding of what Jesus is saying when He says,'If you have seen me, you have seen the Father).

Interact with Russell from thekingpin68 on any Biblical issue you want advice on. He may give you one of his 'Phd' answers. If you don't follow it, just ask him to break it down. He will.


Penn Tomassetti said...


I think the best thing for me to say on this post is: be careful about the information you receive from anyone you do not know personally to be a faithful servant of Christ. It moves me with deep sorrow to see how so many people play around with the holy Scriptures (the word of God) as if they are playing intellectual games. I have had experiences enough to teach me the reality of false teachers and their seductive ways. Your co-worker is an extreme example. Most are not so obvious. Not like JWs, Mormons, etc. etc. Like I said, many false teachers are NOT obvious, and are often IN the church not just outside it. I want to encourage you to continue reading the Bible with a deep passion to be taught of God. To look to Jesus for everything (Heb. 12:2; John 6:35-38). Remember that Jesus is NOT a created being as Jim is trying to explain somehow (see John 1:1-3; if all things were made BY Him, and NOTHING that has been made was made without Him, then He COULD NOT have been made). I understand that Jim is saying Christ's flesh was created (made), which is true, but the Person of Jesus Christ (or YHWH in the O.T.), who is somehow the third Person in the Trinity, was never made, since He is the creator of all things (Col. 1:16). The reason He learned obedience in His flesh was not because He wasn't already perfectly sinless, but was in order to become a perfect substitute for us and to FULFILL all that the Law required in the Messiah. (See Romans 5:18-19; and the book of Hebrews for more light on this). Learning this stuff can take time, so don't think you need to know everything, if you are in Christ, then you are being kept by His power (1 Thes. 5:24-25; 1 Peter 1:3-5; etc.).

[Jim, don't try to battle me on this issue here on Angela's post if you don't agree with what I just said. You have my email address, just understand that neither of us have all the time in the world for arguing differences in theology.]

Angela, I'm encouraged by your eagerness to hold fast to the truth. Grace be with you in our great God and Savior.

Penn Tomassetti said...

I mean, Jesus is the second Person in the Trinity. (Even though I don't understand it, I do know it's in the Bible :)

Penn Tomassetti said...

Hi Angela,

I'm posting here bc Jim and I discussed some of the things I talked about here. We came to an agreement on the Trinity. He just said it differently than I'm used to hearing, so I misunderstood him. Anyway, we talked about it in a gracious manner.

I wanted to say that publicly here so that it can be known, in order not to cause trouble to anyone who may read our comments here.
I really enjoy your posts and your "Big Mouth" label :) It seems I got one of those, too!


Angela said...

Thanks, I like reading your blog too. I appreciate you guys not continuing your misunderstanding on my comment is important to have correct theology, and to know and study different doctrine, but it is also important to just let God be God and not worry about whose brain is bigger. Martha vs. Mary, the cerebral edition. I think there is a healthy and God honoring middle ground. You both are free to comment anytime, I always appreciate wisdom and Godly advice. No more duels, though.